Mike Chang and Natalia Chang on Love, Family, Flow60, and Building a Life That Moves Together

Mike Chang and Natalia Chang (Podcast)

[00:00:00] Catherine Kontos:

So I want to welcome both Mike and Natalia to the RetreatBoss podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:06] Natalia Chang:

Thank you so much, Catherine. Thank you, Catherine.

[00:00:09] Catherine Kontos:

When I met you, Mike, in the pre-interview when we first started talking, what impressed me about you was how family-centered you are, how deeply devoted you are to your wife, to your mom, to your family, to your children, and it was really just a breath of fresh air to see that type of devotion and love that just came through. And I want to tell you that because that’s what made me so happy meeting you, because I’m like, “My goodness.” I went to my husband right after. I’m like, “I met the most awesome person right now. It made me so happy to see that.” And so that’s truly your essence. And, I see Natalia. She’s glowing right now as I’m saying that because it’s true, right? And Natalia, I’m sure you agree, right? That he is that man.

[00:00:58] Mike Chang:

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Catherine, so much for that. On my end, I get to see Natalia every day, and I think in my head that she’s the most patient, most loving mother because the kids and the challenges are real. And the great thing about it. Not the great thing, but the truth about it is the kids aren’t coming to me when they’re hurt, scared, upset. Something happens, they fell, or they want to go to sleep. They go to her. And so it’s “

[00:01:33] Mike Chang:

Mommy, Mommy, Mommy.

[00:01:36] Mike Chang:

And she’s a co-founder of Flow60. She’s helping me strategize things. We’re sitting there having to figure things out, all this high-level, and then suddenly kids are, like, constantly coming, and she has to stay patient and still take care of the work and finish the things that she needs to do, and she has so much patience and love, and it’s been amazing and just so. I’m so thankful that she’s the mother of my child and that she’s my wife because I see this every single day, and I don’t know if I would be able to have that level of patience if kids were coming to me constantly like that. And so when other women, you see ‘them, they’re so stressed, and they’re just, “I can’t handle it,” I don’t blame them, because- I, that’s how kids are. And when I see it at home and what happens, you have to be, you just have to be so centered and selfless. Sometimes I see her in the middle of the night, constantly waking up, going here to this bed, and then trying to put this kid to sleep. And then this one’s asleep, and the other one wakes up, and then she goes to the other bed, puts them to sleep. The other one wakes up, goes to the same bed. They’re clinging on both of her boobs and pulling and pulling, and then one bites, it’s just “Ow.” And I’m like. And then and then afterwards she’s “Mike, can you please?” I’m like, “Okay.” And then it just. So it’s, it’s a long, it’s a long way of saying that, it’s very, very impressive what she does, and I’m just really, really glad. And thank you for the compliment, but I think a lot of it is because I have such great support.

[00:03:11] Natalia Chang:

But, I think what you maybe also speaking to a little bit, what came up for me when you said that, is the fact that we travel together, we bring the kids everywhere. You bring the whole family to each event, to each state you speak. And it’s like, usually people just travel alone and just get these things done because it’s so much easier.

[00:03:33] Mike Chang:

Not the best business model for anybody watching. Not It’s not going to make you good profitability at all, but you may create some interesting family experiences.

[00:03:43] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. I just want to be, I just want to stay together. We should stay together, whatever happens, and let’s just do this together. That’s, really, yeah, that’s something. Like, he might not have the most amount of time all the time. But just the fact that we are able to do this as a family and, yeah, that’s it.

[00:04:05] Catherine Kontos:

That is incredible because you’re right, it is easier to go alone. But what happens is that wears on the family, right? The kids miss you. The wife or the husband misses you, depending on who’s away all the time, and you’re, you start disconnecting. And I don’t think it’s such a horrible model. So, yes, it tears away a little bit at your profits, and it’s a little harder because you have to deal with all kinds of situations that you’re not expecting, but you’re a unit. You’re a unit, and you stay a unit throughout the whole thing. How do you not get under each other’s skin, being together all the time? What’s the. Is there a trick, or is it just natural for you guys? Or do you like, is there boundaries that you’re like, “Okay, I need my alone time. Give me 60 minutes”? Like, what is it that you guys do to make it work?

[00:04:53] Mike Chang:

She does let me know. When it gets to that point.

[00:04:57] Natalia Chang:

Yeah

[00:04:57] Mike Chang:

In the

[00:04:58] Natalia Chang:

Beginning, we had this dynamic where if there was a conflict, I would run away, try to get my space, and Mike would pace after me.

[00:05:07] Mike Chang:

Where you going? Where you going? Yeah. Oh, you want to talk over there. Okay. Come on, let’s go talk over there.

[00:05:15] Natalia Chang:

So that one, he knows now if I need to go, he just lets me go, but it also doesn’t happen that often anymore that we, I get upset, or I have to have my space. Because I think what happened over the years is, or something I learned over the years, and this is also something that maybe I learned a little bit from Mike, is that we just allow each other to do whatever the other wants to do. So if he feels like he needs to work more because that’s what’s going to help him feel more at peace in the evening or. Then I let him work more without, like, without complaining or. Sometimes I complain. But most of the time, I just let him do whatever he thinks he needs to do, and he does the same for me. If I want to go paddle or if I want to go catch up with a friend, he never says “Oh, you’re doing that again,” or We give each other space to be the person we we want to be or do what we want. Yeah. That I think- That is key. That is key. The fact that you’re together and also allowing each other to be just who you need to be and the time that you need to be that person. I think that’s where a lot of people think, “Oh, my God, they’re always together,” or whatever,

[00:06:33] Catherine Kontos:

Do they have a life separate from each other? And, yeah, you do. You do, and that’s

[00:06:39] Mike Chang:

I learned something that was, like, really life-changing. Two things that go directly together. The first one is accepting people for the way they are. Accepting them, therefore, just let them be themselves. Accepting them. And that one was, was really tough because so many people. I just had a conversation yesterday with a young man, and he’s in a relationship, and we were talking. And I was telling him that what really works in a relationship is just letting people be the way they are, and not trying to go and help them all the time. And that’s really tough for people because you-

[00:07:23] Natalia Chang:

It’s really tough for men.

[00:07:25] Mike Chang:

Maybe it is tough for men because we’re good men and we want to help our partners, we want to help people. And I told them, and I told them, the reason why you want to help, your partner, your girlfriend so much is because you’re constantly inside trying to help yourself. So therefore you believe that everybody needs to do it this way, and that they need to work on themselves, they need to focus on personal development, all of these things. When in reality, it’s you that want to work on yourself. It’s you that want to do personal development so much, not the other person.” Which then brings me to, Well, so then let them do their own thing, and when they’re ready, they’ll come to you. Which then brings to the second thing, which is let people have their own experience of life. Really, the same idea, but it’s just said in a different way. Let people have their own experience. Some people’s experience can be, they have to fall down seven, eight times before they get back up. They may need to make their own decisions and go down their paths, and we as our, as their loved ones, husbands, wives, friends, if we really love somebody, we just let them go down the path that they choose, and whenever they raise their hand and go, “I need some help,” great. We’re friends, we’re loved ones, we help. Whenever they want advice, we give the advice because we’re there for them. Whenever they don’t, and they’re just sharing, “Hey, I’ve been doing this,” don’t say, “Oh, yeah, I see. You should do that instead.” They weren’t even asking. And I think when people really start to consciously listen, they’ll realize a lot of conversations is sharing, not asking. And that was something I had to learn, because every time when someone talks, I’m like, “Oh, yeah. Let me hear on what I should share about, my opinion about this or what I think you should be doing, or how can we improve it?” Versus, many times, they’re not asking at all. There are no clues of it. And then when we try to share it, they’re still not even caring about our opinion because they weren’t even interested. They were just simply sharing. And I think that has been such a great lesson for me personally, because I struggled most of my life with that. And since I learned that, when Natalia and I communicate, when we’re doing things, it’s like it’s not, it’s not perfect. Sometimes it’ll slip out, and then when I hear, when I see how she responds, it’s like, it’s an alarm going, “Wait, you’re doing it. Stop.” And it doesn’t escalate into, into somebody feels like they’re being forced, or they’re not paying attention, or they don’t care what I said. It doesn’t escalate into that because I catch myself because I’ve practiced for so many years now. I’m not perfect at it, but it’s, it’s just entirely different. The relationship I have now versus before, when I used to do those things.

[00:10:15] Catherine Kontos:

I was thinking too, when you were 20 years old, right? If you were 20 years old and you met each other at that time, would it have still worked out, you think? If you remember who you were at that age, or would it have been like a train wreck?

[00:10:33] Mike Chang:

It would have been a different relationship- Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean.

[00:10:36] Natalia Chang:

We would have had a lot of fun.

[00:10:38] Mike Chang:

Yeah. A lot of, lot of, lot of fun. Yeah.

[00:10:40] Natalia Chang:

We were, like, actually pretty similar. Yeah, pretty similar. True. Yeah.

[00:10:46] Mike Chang:

That would have been just-

[00:10:48] Natalia Chang:

. Completely nuts. Yeah, I think if the timing was right- Yeah. To be honest, yeah, we probably would have, I don’t know.

[00:10:58] Catherine Kontos:

I, I

[00:10:58] Natalia Chang:

Think it, it just always happens how it has to happen. Sometimes I’m thinking about that. I feel like we were in, at some point, I think we were in Santa Barbara at the same time at some point, and sometimes I think about what would have been if we met there, and.

[00:11:13] Mike Chang:

We would have had fun. Yeah. But there’s no way that our relationship would be not even close to the same. Awesome. We would be fighting all the time.

[00:11:24] Catherine Kontos:

Yeah. It

[00:11:24] Mike Chang:

Would just be. It would be like my relationships that I had when I was 20, yeah. Constantly just fighting, arguing, and just so intense drama. Like, when I argued with my girlfriend, at that age, it would take about two and a half days for any argument to just, to be gone. You have a little conflict, and suddenly it’s like you just hold a grudge, or I held a grudge for, about average, about two and a half days, and that’s a small one. If it’s a big one, could be, like, a week, of you just don’t really talk to each other. And then there’s the really big ones where you have to let it go because there’s nothing you can do, but it’s just hold on, and then three months later you say it again.

[00:12:05] Mike Chang:

That would have been like that, our relationship would have just been constantly conflict, and no, because no real love can grow in that type of. When people treat each other that way, and again, it’s like this stuff, this is the type of stuff that they should be teaching in school.

[00:12:21] Mike Chang:

Like- Why don’t they teach about relationships in school? Heck, it’s like people work, yeah, you need to work, that you need to be healthy. What about relationships? Oh, we kind of just forgot that between geometry and freaking-. I don’t know, history, economics. It’s all of it is just built for survival, not for love, not for relationships. But yet we are human beings, we get together, we have it’s just like you see it at school, there’s the couples. Somehow, they just kind of left that out, right?

[00:12:53] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s another point that you just, like, when we hold on for things way too long, if we can learn to just not take it personally, like in the first place, and then just let it go as fast as we can, and then everything changes. There’s no reason to hold on to, “Oh, he said that,” and then in your mind go about all the things that. I think that’s a big one also. Just- Yeah. Like it takes a lot of work to first not take things personally, and then just do your best to just let it go. Yeah. And the relationship can continue. Like, if you have to work, you can’t not talk to each other for like a day. That won’t work out. Yeah. That really

[00:13:41] Catherine Kontos:

Won’t work out. Yeah. How did you meet, and how fast did your relationship, did you. I’ll I’ll speak to Natalia first. Did he was the one when you met him? Was it that instant for you?

[00:13:54] Natalia Chang:

Yeah, it was hard for me to pinpoint. So for me, I wasn’t in a relationship for. I was 31 when I met Mike, and I wasn’t in a relationship for eight or nine years

[00:14:07] Catherine Kontos:

Before. Oh, wow.

[00:14:08] Natalia Chang:

So for me, it was like, maybe I don’t find that one. I almost didn’t believe anymore that I’m going to find that one. Sometimes I even wonder, do people make up love? Yeah, because I couldn’t really imagine after being single for so long that maybe, yeah. And-

[00:14:27] Catherine Kontos:

Oh, wow.

[00:14:29] Natalia Chang:

Yeah.

[00:14:29] Catherine Kontos:

Like, you didn’t think it existed for you, or you didn’t think it even existed, true love didn’t exist.

[00:14:34] Natalia Chang:

I had, How do you say it? I had the hope still, but there was this one thing that said, maybe I just, I just make a career and don’t have kids, and maybe it’s not for me. Yeah. Or maybe it’s not even, maybe it’s not how people are saying love is. Yeah. And, I don’t feel comfortable in that construct, and maybe I’m just better alone with friends. Yeah. It’s very interesting. So when I met him, I think my body knew that he’s the one, because like I had this, like my chest felt like it’s so open. Yeah. It was like, and it didn’t go away for a couple of days. It was just like an intense feeling in my chest.

[00:15:18] Catherine Kontos:

Wow.

[00:15:19] Natalia Chang:

When I saw him, I was like, “Who is this man?” Yeah. My body knew

[00:15:25] Catherine Kontos:

That and what about you, Mike?

[00:15:30] Mike Chang:

So it was the complete opposite as far as looking at love. I was always in relationships. I was actually in a relationship at that moment that we met, still, because love is out there. I’m going to find the perfect one, and we’re going to get married and live happily ever after, and I’m not going to stop until I find that one. That was the mentality. So that started at 14, and I’ve spent three months in my life dating, period. That’s it. Besides, I didn’t date. There’s no dating. Yeah. I’m not interested,

[00:16:11] Mike Chang:

I’m. Find the one, right? Not going to waste time dating.

[00:16:15] Catherine Kontos:

Or be single.

[00:16:16] Mike Chang:

Or be single. It’s like there’s no point in being single. I want to have a partner. I want to. It’s like it was very certain. So I never lost hope there. However, so when we met, and I saw her, instantly what was for me was her eyes. When I looked into her eyes, I saw, like I felt, something so deep. I didn’t know that she’s going to be my wife and that we’re going to have a relationship together. But what came to me was there was a feeling that was so deep, so unknown. I didn’t know what this feeling was. I don’t know if I’m unfamiliar. What is this feeling? Like it’s not worry, it’s not fear, it’s not even the love that I felt throughout all of my relationships since 14.

[00:17:13] Mike Chang:

What is this feeling? And I remember coming back home, like we met at this co-working space, this co-working kind of hotel, and in the community kitchen, and my girlfriend was there. Yeah. That was. Wasn’t that you? Okay. Thank you. And it’s, And I remember coming back home, and when I close my eyes, I can see her eyes right there just like- Just like piercing into my soul, looking so deep. But yet I didn’t know what the feeling was. And then it just stayed with me. Then the next day, I think I saw her. It was then the next day, after, I don’t remember. But every time we see each other, I was I had that feeling. It was so deep. And then I remember by, the third or fourth day, I was at home and I was just closing my closing my eyes, and I can see her eyes, and I’m sitting with the feeling. And then this event came up, an old memory of when I was a child, and I was watching this movie by Mel Gibson. Called, Braveheart, Yes. And seeing how he went back, he, the scene where he first, he was a little boy, and his mom died, and then the little girl gave him this flower, and then he, he held it and just kept it. And then, afterwards, he left with his uncle, explored the world, became a man, and then came back all of these years, and then, at the end, after they had one night where they just kind of hung out, he gave her that flower before leaving, riding off. Basically, that flower meant, “I’ve loved you this entire time. I’ve thought about you the entire time,” and I remember these scenes, and when I watched that as a kid, I used to cry. And because I felt such deep love, and I wanted that. To me, that was love. And the feeling that I had when I watched that was the same feeling that I had when I saw Natalia. Mm. And instantly, I realized this was the love that was programmed in my mind as a child. This is what love is, and the feeling that I had was that as a child. And then, since then, I didn’t feel that anymore throughout my life until I met her, then that feeling came back. And that’s when I knew I need to, I need to pursue this relationship, whatever happens. So there’s a long version to this. But the short version. My girlfriend and I, we split up, and then, 15 minutes later or so, I’m at Natalia’s doorstep, literally in front of her hotel, going, “Okay, the relationship is over. And let’s, let’s, let’s start our relationship.” I mean, it was. That’s how, that’s how fast. I mean, I was-

[00:20:07] Catherine Kontos:

Wow.

[00:20:08] Natalia Chang:

Before we even kissed or anything.

[00:20:10] Mike Chang:

Yeah.

[00:20:11] Natalia Chang:

He was already, “What are we doing about this?”

[00:20:14] Mike Chang:

Yeah.

[00:20:14] Natalia Chang:

Yeah, that and

[00:20:15] Mike Chang:

We didn’t even talk about. We didn’t even, we didn’t even, for a whole, one whole week, we were spending time with each other, and we didn’t even talk about how we felt about each other. Nothing, I felt like I’m in a relationship, so it’s not right for me to go and talk about that. And I think maybe she felt that way as well because she knew- Of course. So we’re just going to hang out, and there are other people around, so it wasn’t just exclusively we’re sneaking off on dates or something. It was like, there are other people around. But it was so intense in the way I felt, and we didn’t say anything, and also my girlfriend started started seeing, noticing how her and I would look at each other, and her and I would be fighting at home, about it. And all this time, we’re not even. There’s no conversation about it between her and I. And at the end of the week, I remember I asked her, I was like, “How was your week?” And she told me, “Terrible.” And I go, “What?” And I said, “Why, what happened?” And I don’t remember exactly what you said. I feel like you said, “Because I don’t, I’m so confused because I have these, all these feelings for you, and I don’t know how you feel about me,” or something like that. And I remember just, like, when I heard that, it’s like all this pressure dropped because the whole time, while this, all this drama’s happening at my house, and I have all of these feelings, there was this small idea that maybe it’s literally all just in my head.

[00:21:40] Catherine Kontos:

You don’t know until right?

[00:21:42] Mike Chang:

Yeah. There’s just might be a chance. And I’m just so off. I’m just in my head, oh, yeah.

[00:21:47] Catherine Kontos:

Fantasizing. No,

[00:21:49] Mike Chang:

Sorry. That’She’s “Buddy,

[00:21:50] Catherine Kontos:

No.” Yeah, ‘

[00:21:52] Mike Chang:

Cause we had talks about it. I don’t, I wasn’t, like, learning nothing. We were just talking like normal human beings. And so there was that, and then when she said, “because I don’t know how you feel about me,” oh, wow, okay. Then I just poured it out. I said, “I feel,” and I felt- And I checked

[00:22:10] Natalia Chang:

Our horoscopes. We’re a perfect match. I

[00:22:14] Mike Chang:

Was into reading horoscopes a lot more because I wanted. I was trying to do everything. Find the right one. Yeah, and-

[00:22:22] Catherine Kontos:

And you did. So and

[00:22:23] Mike Chang:

Her, we were, like, the perfect match, or we are the perfect match- on horoscopes as well. She’s, she’s the year of the rabbit. I’m the year of the dog. We get along really well. Dogs like to take care of rabbits, and,. I don’t know in real life, but as far as Yeah, I was

[00:22:37] Catherine Kontos:

About to say, in real life, I’m not sure. I’m not so sure about that in real life, but.

[00:22:44] Mike Chang:

Yeah. That’s not how that works. I’m a Sagittarius, and she’s an Aries, and that, we get along really well. I knew that from personal experience because my first, almost our second, official relationship ever was a nine-year relationship with an Aries. So I knew that me and Aries get along well. Nine years. So when I found out she’s an Aries, I already knew, oh, we’re going to get along just fine. And then when I found out she was a rabbit, I was like, oh, wow. Well, I read horoscopes to where we get along really good as well. And so instantly I knew, the stars aligned were helping on that point. But of course, there’s many, many other rabbit Aries out there, So doesn’t mean, yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:27] Natalia Chang:

And I think for me also, something that was, like, really new, meeting Mike is the level of commitment that he has. I feel a lot of men this day, they don’t want to commit. They’re like. Not just men, I think everybody.

[00:23:42] Catherine Kontos:

I think- Yeah, I think it’s everybody now.

[00:23:45] Natalia Chang:

There, like, I don’t want to commit. Like, there are so many things. Yeah, this- Mm. Un-commitment. And when I met Mike, well, when that day where he was on my footstep doorstep, we went on a walk, and he was like, “How do we make this happen? You’re going to. ” I was in Bali at that time, just on a vacation to write on my master’s thesis, and he was traveling. He didn’t know where to go, kind of exploring after he sold his company. So he’s “How do we make that happen? You’re going to go back to Switzerland, and then, and I told him, I go back, finish my master’s. Maybe I ask for a sabbatical, and then we meet again in Bali.” And he was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no.” You’re not, you’re not going to go. He like, “I’m not living

[00:24:33] Catherine Kontos:

Without you.”

[00:24:34] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t let you go, and then maybe you come back. And we didn’t even kiss at that point. Oh my goodness.

[00:24:41] Mike Chang:

Yeah. Planning out how we’re going to go and build a, create this relationship, and-

[00:24:46] Natalia Chang:

So it was a little bit scary in the beginning, but at the same time, because I had this feeling he’s the right one, it was also refreshing to have a man who really just goes for and makes it. It’s not like. Yeah. That was just, like, such a, yeah, refreshing. Just, it also just gave me confidence.

[00:25:09] Mike Chang:

So then I suggested- That she said- She goes, what do you think?” And I was. And so she’s like, “Well, maybe you can come, like, around February.” It was around October at the moment. And she was going back to Switzerland. And she’s like, “Well, yeah, I was thinking, January or February, you can come, and then, because I’ll be done with my master’s, and to have more time.” And I was like, “Yeah, I’m thinking, next week.” She’s like, “No, I mean, that’s, that’s not, that’s not possible. And it’s too early.” I’m like. And I go, “Why not?” She’s like, “Well, like, I’m, I’m going to be working, and busy.” I go, “That’s fine. I’m a grown man. You don’t need, you don’t need to watch over me,”? “I’ll be, I’ll be fine. I’ll go do stuff, I’ll go work, and I’ll do stuff. Don’t worry.” She’s “Okay. But what are you going to do?” I was like, I’ve got plenty of things to do.” I go, don’t worry about me. You just go to work, I’ll be fine.”

[00:25:58] Natalia Chang:

Where are you going to stay? Yeah.

[00:25:59] Mike Chang:

I’m going to stay with you. She asked me, “Where are you going to I’m

[00:26:05] Catherine Kontos:

Going to stay with you.”

[00:26:06] Mike Chang:

And you could see her, like, going, I’m like, “Right? I mean, can we do that?” She went, “Yeah.” Okay. I just stand here-

[00:26:14] Catherine Kontos:

I’ve have to ask, Natalia, what were the girls saying when they were hearing all this, all your friends? Were they like, “What are you doing?”

[00:26:21] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. I think they were a little bit surprised. Also, from me, they didn’t know I was always kind of rational, right?

[00:26:28] Catherine Kontos:

You were eight years not in a relationship, right? All of a sudden, you’re in this whirlwind romance. You’re moving in with somebody a week later. They must have. I’m hearing the chatter in the ears, for sure. Yeah.

[00:26:39] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. It was like. And I also, like, when I met Mike, I wasn’t into spirituality, anything. I didn’t even know what it meant. And then I meet this guy who is feels a bit like an alien to me. All these things I never heard before, but somehow it just felt, yeah, I need to be with him.

[00:26:58] Mike Chang:

She even told me that. She even told me, “I feel like you’re an alien.” And

[00:27:03] Natalia Chang:

It feels-

[00:27:03] Catherine Kontos:

Are you

[00:27:03] Mike Chang:

Real?. Pretty serious. Yeah, she was like pretty serious, waiting for me to tell me, “Okay, fine. Actually, I’m from around here.” She was just kind of waiting and-

[00:27:12] Natalia Chang:

Oh, we didn’t even believe in aliens. But

[00:27:15] Mike Chang:

You also didn’t believe in a lot of this other stuff I said.

[00:27:19] Natalia Chang:

So when we went back, I went back straight to work, and he would bring me to work every day, on another bicycle, on my sister’s bicycle, and he would wear. It was snowing, ice cold in Switzerland by that time, and he would wear only swim shorts and nothing else, so he could do cold therapy. Okay. And the people from the work where I was working at the agency at that time, they would peek out of the window every morning to see us arriving. It was like, “What is this crazy guy that he brought home with?” Something that made my life a little bit easier is that most of the men knew him from the Six Pack Shortcuts time. Yes. Like, okay, it’s, like, not this crazy person without clothes that he just brought back from-. Nowhere. So that made a made it a little bit easier.

[00:28:17] Mike Chang:

There’s a little bit of credibility that he’s, that he was sane enough, but that was, like, the anchor, right? If they didn’If they didn’t see me before online, they’d be like, “This guy is just completely nuts.”

[00:28:29] Natalia Chang:

He nuts. Yeah.

[00:28:30] Mike Chang:

So there, there’s a little bit of credibility and sanity

[00:28:33] Natalia Chang:

There.

[00:28:33] Catherine Kontos:

Everybody worried about me. What? It’s just a man in love. That’s it. It’s true. Men do crazy things, right? And women do crazy things. When they, they fall in love, it’s like you, you get. Your mind gets- goes into hostage mode. Somebody like just takes over, something takes over, and you do the craziest things. You’ll go to a different country. I don’t know. I don’t know. Tell me, Mike, what else did you do?

[00:29:01] Mike Chang:

The next thing is even crazier. So then I. So we’re there in Europe, right? I’m there, I’m there, living with her now. I’m sharing bedrooms with her. We’re not alone. Her sister also lives there, as well. So then when she brought me home, it’s like she also had to tell her sister, “Hey, I met a guy on holiday and he’s moving in.” Next

[00:29:19] Catherine Kontos:

Week.

[00:29:19] Mike Chang:

Next week.

[00:29:22] Catherine Kontos:

I love it. So then

[00:29:23] Mike Chang:

If that wasn’t enough, my visa is running out because I can only stay in Europe for 90 days. So then I. So then I told her, I was like, “Hey, well, I have to leave soon,?come with me. Let’s keep going?” And she’s like, “Well, what about, what about, my, my work and, and my friends here and my life here?”

[00:29:45] Natalia Chang:

I was like- Yeah, I just did my master’s and committed to stay for five years with the company- Oh, because they paid for it. Oh. I didn’t even finish my master’s. Oh, my goodness.

[00:29:56] Mike Chang:

Yeah, and she’s about to get promoted and run, run like this new division of the company, like, like. And I was like, just leave it. Just who cares? Just come. We’ll start our own company.”

[00:30:10] Catherine Kontos:

And there comes Flow60, right? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Were you into wellness as much as? Mike had a whole career, livelihood, and everything. Were you as much into wellness as well? Or was it more of a, “I’m into wellness, but not necessarily my entire life, my career”? I

[00:30:30] Natalia Chang:

Don’t know if I would call it wellness, but I grew up doing a lot of. I was always moving. I was always in my body. Like growing. I grew up in the mountains, in a ski resort. I would. Ski. I would go mountain bike. I would go play all these sports. That was just like how I was. And yeah. I think I was like, I did yoga, but I didn’t know why it feels good. I did all these things, but I didn’t know why it feels good. And yeah.

[00:31:05] Mike Chang:

She was. When I first hugged her, I I always remember that because when I hugged her, I can feel all these muscles, and my first remark was, “Whoa, you’re muscular. Like, you work out.” She’s like, “What? No, I don’t work out.” I go, “Bullshit, you work out.” I just, I felt all that muscle. She’s like, “No, I don’t, I don’t.” And I go, “You work out like crazy.” I think that’s what I said. And she’s like, “No, I don’t work out.” And I go, “I know people when they work out. Like, that’s my life. You work out, you train. There’s no way you can have all this muscle.” And she’s like, “No, I don’t work out.” And then so I started digging in and finding out what she does. And I remember, I think you told me you did, you work out at this gym twice a week, and that’s it. And I’m like, nope, not going to buy it. You’re doing other things. There’s no way you can maintain this amount of tone and muscularity at, like, two days a week of working out.” So then, when we’re back in Switzerland, I’m watching her lifestyle, things started to click, right? She rides a bike every day to work. And there’s parts where she’s up too, and she’s cranking it? And she’s also wearing a backpack with, like, stuff in it sometimes as she’s also riding the bike, and she walks everywhere. And then when she goes grocery shopping, she puts all the groceries in her backpack, puts it on, and then walks, and that’s, like, normal? She doesn’t even own a car, so she’s never sitting there, driving. And I see that and I’m like, you’re always training. Now I see why you’re like, you’re so, you’re, you’re so muscular? I mean, it wasn’t, like, jacked, but, like, solid,?and I love that because I work out and I love people who are fit. But when it came to, like, spirituality, transformational work, it was just not her world at all. Her world, like she mentioned, she does one or two yoga classes, once in a while. Yeah. And for me, it’s like, how do I shift consciousness? I’ll find ways to shift my consciousness and then switch back, and I start to understand, if you think about a certain thought, think about a scenario, enter into it, you will enter into that, and then your consciousness will evolve. And then if you do it long enough, you’ll maintain that consciousness for a little while, and literally, reality changes. I’m practicing learning how to shift realities all the time. That’s what I did. I wasn’t working anymore. My work was that, and I did that every day for years and years. And so that for her was like, we’re just so opposites.

[00:33:37] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. When we met, it was a big gap of what we are interested in. I

[00:33:42] Mike Chang:

Don’t drink, I don’t party. I’m just interested in training and development, and she had a social life; I didn’t. I didn’t care. So it was, like, totally different worlds. But to-

[00:33:57] Natalia Chang:

Yeah, to the extent that my friends were asking, “If you go out and he doesn’t drink alcohol, what are you guys doing?” Yeah.

[00:34:06] Mike Chang:

I now still- He is drinking

[00:34:06] Catherine Kontos:

Water. He is drinking water. It looks like vodka in a martini glass or something. I don’t know. He great.

[00:34:16] Natalia Chang:

He doesn’t need to drink to be-

[00:34:18] Mike Chang:

Yeah. Yeah. And it was fine, it was totally fine.

[00:34:22] Catherine Kontos:

And how is that gap now? Is it closer?

[00:34:27] Natalia Chang:

Smaller,

[00:34:27] Mike Chang:

Yeah. Yeah?

[00:34:29] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. We care about similar things. We think about similar things. We

[00:34:32] Mike Chang:

Party like crazy. We

[00:34:33] Natalia Chang:

Party like crazy.

[00:34:36] Mike Chang:

Vodka now. Yes. Yeah. She at some point says, “Hey, maybe if you’re not drinking, I don’t really feel like drinking either.” And when we

[00:34:46] Natalia Chang:

Started traveling after I left my job and everything in Switzerland. We started traveling, and it was just the two of us. Like, why would. It’s no fun to drink alone, right?

[00:34:57] Mike Chang:

Exactly.

[00:34:57] Natalia Chang:

I stripped away one thing after the other. It was just felt natural.

[00:35:00] Mike Chang:

No more smoking, even though she still, she rolls one of the meanest joints. I was always so impressed, just like a machine roll. Wow. I’m like, “How do you do that?” I remember one day I was just sitting there watching, How do you make it so tight and so? And so it’s like a, it feels so long ago, I mean-

[00:35:22] Natalia Chang:

Feels like we were so young.

[00:35:24] Mike Chang:

Yeah. And now it’s like we, we have fun. We have fun, but we have fun in other ways; we go and play paddle together. We go on have interesting, explorations of places and-

[00:35:35] Natalia Chang:

Hot and cold baths together.

[00:35:37] Mike Chang:

Yeah. Just different. Drink tea. Drink What-. And talk about things.

[00:35:43] Catherine Kontos:

Yes. So what’s it like working together now? Now that it’s been a few years you’ve been working together, what advice would you give to anybody really who has really, has made a career out of their wellness, now they’re with somebody and they want to do something together as a couple, because it’s a lifestyle, right? You can’t have two extremes on that. So what advice would you give a couple going forward into doing business together and growing together in that capacity? What are the dos and don’ts? Nirzari?

[00:36:19] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. The first thing, and we touched about it before, is to learn how to not take things personally.

[00:36:27] Natalia Chang:

Sometimes in work, it’s not about who is right or, it’s just, like, sometimes, okay, this is the 50. We introduced something that we call 50/50. Okay. You have, sometimes you have, discussions about, “I think this is right,” and he thinks, no, it’s for sure this.” And we learned over the years that most of the time, 50% of the time, he is right, and 50% I’m right. So if we can’t figure out, like, if I am on this side and he’s on this side, we let it go. We say 50/50, and the person who feels more strongly about going in that way, we let that person take it into that way.

[00:37:14] Natalia Chang:

It is not about trying to get my way. If I if I feel this is really important to Mike to just go this direction, but I still feel like it’s not going to work out that way, or it might not work out that way, but he really feels strongly about it, and it’s how he wants to do it, I just run with it. And he does the same thing for me. And I think that avoids fighting about who is right. Yeah. And another important thing, of course, is also when there is an outcome, you don’t say, “See? I was right.”

[00:37:50] Catherine Kontos:

You bite your tongue, and you walk away. 50. 50/50.

[00:37:57] Mike Chang:

Because it’s happened a lot, It happened enough times that we realized there’s a, there’s always a chance, no matter how certain that we are of something, that we’re wrong. There’s always a chance, and I think we have consciously become aware of that in our own decisions, that this 50/50, concept is really real for us. It’s very accurate, because I can’t think about the amount of times where I thought I was so right, and then at the end, something happens, and it was exactly, we should have went with her decision.

[00:38:33] Mike Chang:

I go, “Yeah, you’re right,” and vice versa. And it happens so much to where it’s okay, we don’t know when it’s going to happen, in the moment. We do not know the future. But what we do know is that there’s always that possibility, and we’re okay with it, like what Natalia said. We’re okay with it because it’s not about, it’s not about trying to be right. It’s about part of it is making the best decision overall, because we run a company together. While the other one is also letting. Is respecting each other, and letting each other go with what that person feels really strongly in. Because like when, like when Natalia mentioned, sometimes she feels really strongly in something, and I don’t see it that way, and she’s she’s trying to explain it, and sometimes, she explains it, but I still don’t see it. And at some point, it’s like I think in my mind, what’s more important? Doing it my way in that moment, which deep inside I know this is the right way, and we’re going to move forward. What’s more important? That, therefore, the company, moving forward, and let’s say that, or doing it her way, and she will respect the fact that I listened to her and let her do it that way. But also. Let me rephrase that.

[00:39:59] Natalia Chang:

It sounds like you were right in the beginning

[00:40:02] Mike Chang:

Sometimes there’s that. There is that

[00:40:04] Natalia Chang:

50/50.

[00:40:05] Mike Chang:

Here is another way of explaining it that is more of a bigger point of what I want to make. Even if I was right, right? Like, even if, even if it was going to be that way, what’s more important than saving two months of time, because we do things, have to back up or, we, we spent some money. What’s more important than that is our relationship. Because yeah, I can, maybe we can win at a couple moves here, and then the cost of it is my wife. My life partner. Life partner, not business. Life partner. What’s more worth it? You want to, you can’t win at everything. Every life is all about sacrifice, right? You have kids? Sorry, you may not sleep that much. It’s just a sacrifice thing. It’s not a good or bad, just what it is. Which one’s more important? Technically, you can just have someone else raise your kids so you can get sleep, but what’s more important? Somebody will go, “I’ll sacrifice some sleep for some years because it’s important for me to be there for my child.” So then when I look at business, same thing. There might be a chance that we go down a path, and even if it wasn’t the best, even if, right? That’s not saying. But the way I look at it, what makes me, my value, my priority, my wife’s, our relationship, is that important, and when it comes to deciding on things, it’s not just about winning at business. It’s also a relationship, winning at relationships.

[00:41:36] Natalia Chang:

But also taking into account that you may not even be right.

[00:41:39] Mike Chang:

You also have to take into account that you might not even be right. When you have those two things, you go that way.

[00:41:46] Natalia Chang:

I think another really important thing, when you do business together, is to spend time as a couple. It doesn’t need to be long. It can be, like, just spend 10 minutes, just hug for one minute, just have these small moments. Find out what is important for the other person. Let’s say it’s Mike feels really good if I come and I just hug him for a minute. Or I really appreciate it if he sits with me for 10 minutes and I can just share something. And having that playfulness, that connection between one each other, it is so different when you work together. Like the tone is softer. It’s more playful, more creative, more fun. So I think-

[00:42:36] Mike Chang:

Yeah, because I think a lot of people talk about, you need to, we have times we’re working, there’s times we don’t talk about work at all. That’s like this picture-perfect reality. Yes, if everything is going perfectly, if there’s no issues, if, we’re just, we got things on autopilot or, things are great. Maybe in, like, five years from now. But right now things are not great, and there’s a lot of questions, a lot of things to figure out, and we don’t even have enough time to sit and properly discuss all the things that are needed. So what that means is the personal time and the business time blends together, and there is not really personal business. It’s like we talk about personal things and, “Hey, also, let’s talk about that one meeting and what we need to decide on this. And also, what I was thinking for the next offer is that we should do. ” Just like there, there is no, “Hey, let’s sit down and have a time, to talk about business.” There is not that. If we can just steal some time, great, before the kids come barging in. So what Natalia is saying about, like, so therefore, like, having that few minutes or 10 minutes, like I used to be much, much better at it. I’m not as good at it now as before, but I’m coming back doing that. Which is every day, I used to give Natalia massages, because for me, it was an excuse to go and get physical with her. Like, just to be very honest, I love, I love touching her. Sure.

[00:44:12] Catherine Kontos:

Yeah. And

[00:44:13] Mike Chang:

It’s just like, instead of just every day, just hey,” just constantly rubbing and it’s okay, all yeah, I’m having a great time, but what is she gaining from it? What she likes? She likes massages. First of all, I get to touch, and she likes it because I’m not just groping, right? It’s like, just like, like can you stop squeezing my butt all Okay, if you want to squeeze it, why don’t you squeeze it properly so I can actually get a butt massage? I’m just. If you’re going to go and grab my breast, why don’t you go and massage it? Why don’t you just, just-. Grope her, and I would massage her, and she liked it, and then I liked it, right? So, I would do that every day. I’d look forward to it? And it’s And we really had a lot of. We had so much time spent doing that, and I really enjoyed it. With the kids now, we have it less. But lately we’ve been carving out time, sometimes just like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and just get together and just physically be with each other, Even if it’s for a short period of time. Sometimes we literally have to set an alarm because it’s 12:45 or 1:00 AM, and the kids will wake her up sometimes at, like, 6:30, 7:00. Who knows? They’ll just wake up and don’t want to go to bed. And then she has to be up and. So we’ll just set an alarm. It’s okay, got this little bit of time, but just whatever it takes to get it in. Whatever it takes to make it happen. Because the truth is, life is not perfect. There is no box and structure with rules that everything is following. Life evolves, and we learned how to be at flow with things and do our best to keep all the balls in the air so that our relationship, our business, and family is, is intact and is being supported. And we find a way to kind of fuse it together the best we can. And I’m always in my mind looking for ways, always looking for ways to do that. Like, when we’re making content, I’m always asking this question: how can I have the family and have the kids in the content? Because the way I see it is if the kids can be part of the business, part of the content and the front end and social media, then I would always need to spend time with the family, and we would always need to go and figure out what interesting places we need to go because that contribute towards the business. That contribute towards giving people value, right? That, whatever we’re capturing, whatever it is, it supports people. It helps people. So then, oh, wow, we need to work really hard. Family trip, let’s plan this, let’s plan that, and then it’s great. So in other words, you’re saying that the more time you spend with your kids, the more time you spend with your wife, the more value you’re giving to people, and the better your business is being built. Is that what you’re saying? Yes. I want to crack that. And and then, so with my mom, it’s like, “Okay, Mom, I’m going to train you, but just so we’re going to, we’re going to share it.” And so you’re telling me, the more that you train your mom, when that’s captured, the more people are helped. Like, I I think things in that way. So I keep asking that question. And whatever question we’re asking, we’re going to get an answer. It just sometimes it takes time to figure things out. But that’s always been in my mind, and I find ways to incorporate some of it. And I’m still moving forward to see how I can do it more and more, because that’s what I really want. That’s my vision. I’ve seen channels that do that, right? And you’ve seen them as well, right? And we’ll love it. So that’s my vision, so this way everything can come together. And even though it looks like, this chaos, we’re living life, doing all this stuff, but it works, right? It works, and we want the business to thrive. We want to be able to give all this value to people and help people, and we want our relationship and the family unit to be really strong as well. And it’s a lot to ask for, but there’s a way to set it up, to. So that it can thrive. And I think all it takes is people who have figured it out that we’ve seen, and just kind of copying that model and, and it would work.

[00:48:22] Catherine Kontos:

The Kardashians built an entire empire, right? Yeah.

[00:48:28] Mike Chang:

Yeah. It was not just Kim, right? You need everybody. I’ve actually never watched it, but I know of it. Totally.

[00:48:40] Catherine Kontos:

Is there, in social media, because I’m glad you got, you went into the social media aspect of it, because that was going to be my next question. Is there anything where there’s a full stop, we cannot show this? Is there any time where you’re arguing with each other, or there, there’s “No, we cannot go there. We’re not going there with that. This is not something I want to show the world.”? Is there ever friction about that?

[00:49:03] Natalia Chang:

I remember one time, it was, like, a birth video. And, we definitely wanted to show the birth because I had a natural birth, and it was beautiful. We had it at home. It was very peaceful, and it was with both children, and I really felt like people need to know about alternative ways of birth and what’s possible for them, and how it can feel when you’re in environment where you feel good. And he was editing this one video, and there were just a few clips that felt too personal for me. I think the video that he shared is still personal. But it was more like, okay, these kind of clips are maybe too much.

[00:49:53] Mike Chang:

Too personal. She is having a baby, and I am setting up cameras.

[00:49:55] Natalia Chang:

Yeah. Yeah. Or the “Oh, no,” “This doesn’t look good.” More like that. Honestly, I got really chill about it because he just films everything, and it’s like, I can’t even control what’s going on there. It was seeing myself as I actually am.

[00:50:19] Catherine Kontos:

You know what? It looks like you’re both having fun with it, so that’s what’s most important, right? In the end, you’re both having fun with it. As long as it doesn’t become boring and work and all of that, and you keep having fun with it, everything works out. That’s how I see it.

[00:50:35] Natalia Chang:

I think we just share what is. Instead of trying to create content. Of course, there is content creation, but there is also just share what actually happens. If you do that, you have to be okay if your butt looks a bit bigger in one.

[00:50:55] Catherine Kontos:

There’s something to say about angles, right? A wrong camera angle completely distorts everything.

[00:51:04] Mike Chang:

I remember she told me, because I used to take videos from, the low angle up, and she would go, “Never take pictures from up.” And I go, “Why not? It looks good.” She would say, “No.”

[00:51:15] Natalia Chang:

It is good for you because you look bigger. But for me, if I look bigger, what the?

[00:51:23] Mike Chang:

I heard it so much that finally I said, “Okay.” I just do not do it, not because I think it is wrong, but because she does not like it.

[00:51:29] Catherine Kontos:

Haven’t you seen those videos where there’s a girl and she has the, Sorry, the camera’s underneath. And, you look at it, and you are like, “Oh my God.” And then all of a sudden she raises it up to this angle, and you are like, “Oh, she’s beautiful.” It’s completely distorted. It’s hilarious. So let’s get to the end of my favorite part, where I’m going to ask you a couple of questions real quick. You’re going to point at yourself or at each other as to who is what. Okay? Okay. So who’s the most stubborn? Do you agree? You’re not pointing at me. You have to point, too. Is it you? You need

[00:52:18] Catherine Kontos:

Apologizes first? Who turns something simple into a deep life learning lesson? Yeah, I knew that. I knew that. Yeah. Who spends more money? Who’s the crier? Who watches the kids most? Okay, that’s it.

[00:52:48] Mike Chang:

Okay.

[00:52:50] Natalia Chang:

Okay, 100%.

[00:52:51] Mike Chang:

Yeah. That was pretty spot on. Yeah. I think we were pretty accurate in that.

[00:52:56] Catherine Kontos:

I just want to thank you both so much for being here today. It was fun listening to you and hearing your story. You’re an incredible couple, a fun couple, a very loving couple. And I just look forward to seeing more of you. What’s going on now? What’s coming up for you that you want to maybe just tell the world, “This is our vision going forward,” and maybe they could follow that journey with you?

[00:53:21] Mike Chang:

Well, for us, this year is the year of the horse, and it’s, like, building and coming out, and we have, we have a couple things that we’re really working on. We haven’t even, we haven’t even announced it. It’s not even announced public. I’ve been talking to a business coach who’s asking me to go and write a book. And we’re going to be working on a book together, and, he’s going to be helping me with that. And so I’m really excited about that. I have no idea what the title, and I don’t really even know exactly what it’s going to be about. I have an idea, but that is going to be, that is going to be, announced at some point. So I’m going to announce it on social. Maybe right now, when it comes out, maybe it is, maybe it’s not. But that’s on the hush. But then another thing that we’re really excited about is we’re changing up a couple things and adding into the programs that we’re doing. And we decided, we, we do these 60-day programs online where people join in cohort style. We start at the same time, end the same time, and we take them step by step to help them be able to, let go of, the worries, and the fears, and the stress, and be able to relax their nervous system, get, get present, get stillness in their mind- And we’re really excited about that, and we’ve been spending a lot of time, curating how the experiences are going to be, the level of support with all of our instructors, all the stuff. So that we are really excited about because we’ve run this program for about four years already. And many people went through it, and it’s just been really great to hear all the transformations and the experiences. And now this year we are adding a few things to it and leveling it up even more, and we’re really excited to share that with people. And

[00:55:02] Natalia Chang:

We want to certify people as well. We want to have the training system represented in more places around the world, in person, so people can experience it in person.

[00:55:15] Mike Chang:

Yeah, and we took one year off for certification to go and revamp things, get things ready, and this year we’re going to be getting certification back, and there are a lot of people who have been asking us, and we’re like, “We’re just, we’re not doing it yet, but just be on this list.” That way, we can support people to learn this training system. This way for people that are interested in business or relationships, and they’re able to actually have a healthy relationship because they’re aligned on the inside. They don’t have to prove themselves to themselves. They’re not dealing with all these things, and then they get to support other people, so we’re really excited about that. That’s going to be, that is going to be launching this year for sure.

[00:56:00] Catherine Kontos:

Oh, fantastic. That sounds, that does sound exciting. And, why not spread that knowledge and to the world and go travel and do it at the same time, right? With your children and your, and whoever else you’re going to bring along.

[00:56:08] Catherine Kontos:

I don’t know, but that’s fantastic. I wish you so much so many more blessings. I think you’ve received many so far, and I think it’s just going to continue for you. It’s been truly a pleasure interviewing you. I don’t think I’ve smiled through an entire podcast. I think this is the first time. I literally had a smile from beginning to end, so I thank you for that because it brought me a lot of joy. I appreciate you both.

[00:56:38] Mike Chang:

Thank you, Catherine. It was a pleasure. You have a beautiful smile.

[00:56:41] Catherine Kontos:

Thank you so much. Thank you.